Back to Skinning!!!

[Tveakk]

I am very frustrated ahhh !!!.. skinning in max is hell i say... my model is all messy and i quit.... well im gonna kep trying... but i definatly need help.. plz post tips or tricks to make it esier.... here are few pics to show my ordeal..

[spudmonkey]

Looks like you don't have any envelopes defined so all that is happening is the immediate set of verts is being manipulated instead of an area of verts

[Ndege]

Here are some of my rigging tips:

General

Save files in increments! Some actions during rigging can be terminal, and no amount of undoing will save you! Save early, save often!

Expect it to take some time. I have never ever had a skinned model deform properly right off the bat. It just doesn’t happen.

For a first time rigging experience I would suggest practicing on a low poly model. A model that is built with good edge flow will be better than one that’s just a 3d grid in the shape of a humanoid.

Go into the project planning to weight every vert by hand at some point. If you don’t have to, bonus! But, just plan to. This means that if your mesh is so dense that you can’t see through it in wireframe mode, plan for it to take *a lot* of time to skin properly (if it was me, I would start crying, but I appreciate there are masochists out there). Most of the really high rez models you see in movies were actually animated using a low poly stand-in model that either drives the high or is subdivided at render time (or both).

A good default pose, or “means” position, is essential. Usually this is the T pose. You want to be able to get at every vert to check or adjust its weight (see above weight by hand comment) with out having to spend much time maneuvering around in the viewport to get a good selection angle.

While skinning have an animation on your rig that bends all your joints in the proper fashion, so you can check to see how your weighting is going by quickly scrubbing the time line.

You will learn a lot more and have more control if you build your own rig. Knowing how to set up Bones, IK, control objects, expressions, and constraint controllers will really impress the ladies. Conversely, Biped will get you up and in the skinning mix much faster.


3ds Max specific stuff:

Unless you have a really good reason to use Physique, use Skin. I'm talking "someone holding a gun to your head" good here.

With the skin modifier my general workflow is adjust envelopes on one side, mirror, bake weights to verts, paint/blend weights, mirror, hand adjust weights, mirror.

Did I mention that you should plan for it to take some time?

Good luck!

[Tveakk]

stop scaring me like that.. i think i understood 2 words outta your eassay /cry.. if i understood well... i will have to start off simple obejects and move my way thowards my human... i set up my own bone system and it looks like its in correct places, buts its frustrating me kus i still dont know how to act with the vertexies and how to bend with weights properly... here is a small pic that i dont understand how will i ever make it work, this confuses me


Pic: half of the leg goes inside my dudes pelvix i know its not properly weighted, but when i move the weights it gets messed up.. i hope the image clears up my problem... and thank you for helping me out so XD i really apreciate it.. i guess i gotta practice practice practice / cry

question is should the leg go up so high into the stomach.. is the bone that is in the wrong place?

[Ndege]

Haha, sorry about that. I didn't mean to put you off. I got a little carried away I guess.

Here's a link with a pretty good run-down of skinning basics with some blending tips that might help you along in your predicament (along with a great tutorial on building a figure in the first place). Joan of Arc Tutorial

But overall you seem to have the just of it: "practice, practice, cry." As you are finding out, the biggest pain-in-the-arse areas are, well, the the arse/crotch and armpits.

[Tveakk]

hmm thankx much... ive been through joan of arc tut over thousnads of times, maybe why i cant get it kus i began with the knee/ croch... which confuses me much, well seems i got some nights to kill... i guess i should get starter damn croch !!!!!!!!!

[gallion311]

I don't think you had to apologize Ndege, your response was the perfect way to illustrate the frustrations and methods to become better at skinning.

I know exactly what your going through Tveakk; just as all animators go through a period where it seems like nothing goes right with skinning. The most frustrating thing I dealt with was spending hours fixing a problem joint, and when you finally get that one right another piece of the mesh starts acting up.

One piece of advice I'd definitaly second is learning to rig on a simple, low-poly character; where the edges are intelligently placed on joints. (e.g. The knee should have one edge right where it bends)

Also, I don't have personal experience to speak from; but I've heard that often times a high-poly character may have several rigs depending on the actions being performed. So a full somersault would be a completely different rig/scene than just a common walk cycle.

Follow tutorials rather than trying to teach yourself, terms like vertex weighting, Skin Morphs, and Joint Deformers are certainly worth knowing, and each one fixes a specific problem that occurs during skinning.

Autodesk has a series of training DVD's that you can grab and one or 2 of them go through the whole process of skinning a knight model. Even goes through the errors encountered along the way and how to fix them with some neat tricks.

I'd also recommend Model, Rig, and Animated with 3dsMax 7 by Michele Bousquet. She goes through the process of modeling a simple charcter, but with an advanced rig, built from the ground up using bones, not a biped. Again, she'll take you step by step through the process and it really helps famalirize yourself with the process.

Good Luck!

[Ndege]

Ok, I'm sorry for saying sorry. ;-)

Actually I was apologizing in case I had put him off of rigging with my "essay". That was a bunch of stuff I wish I had known at the beginning. Of course if someone had told me all that stuff I wouldn't have had any idea what they were on about at the time.

I hope I didn't to dissuade anyone from taking it up. It can be a very rewarding part of 3d. But like anything it requires a lot of work, and I daresay a lot of bad rigs that you have to fight with to get an animation out of, to advance your skills.

But hey, that's pretty much par for the course for 3d as a whole, so you know that you can do it already!

Tveakk: I can't really say much about your bone placement as I can't see it. Post some wire frames if you still need help. From the thumbnail you posted it looks like you have pretty near 100% weights on the leg with an abrupt transition to the hip envelope right at the hip joint.

To tell you the truth, I usually put a point helper between the joint from the hip to the thigh. It is location constrained to the top of the thigh and orientation constrained between the hip and thigh to offload some of the vert bunching there. It's never gonna be a perfect bend short of blend shaping it, but it's good enough for 90% of the stuff we do around here (not a lot of transitions to sitting poses).

[L2K]

one very important thing is to model FOR the animation.

learn how to put edge loops on you character. where to put an extra resolution edge or vertex.
i'd recommend to examine professional low poly characters. (the unreal 2004 ones are available on the net. you'll find them easily)
then build your own, then, back to riging and skining
then only, work on hi res characters.

remember also that displace maps on low poly thingies are ultra hardcore powerfull tools and are quite easy to learn. (it works exactly like the bump map)

[Ndege]

Originally Posted by L2K

one very important thing is to model FOR the animation.

AMEN!! Here's a very good basic deformation tutorial: Ancient Pig's Basic deformation tutorial

remember also that displace maps on low poly thingies are ultra hardcore powerfull tools and are quite easy to learn. (it works exactly like the bump map)

I gotta take issue with the use of "exactly" here due to possible confusion. bump maps perturb the normal space of the surface, while displacement maps move the actual geometry.