Viper MK2 Sharp Corners

[Adalla]

Looking good so far m8. Definitely doing a better job than I am. Here is my Mark 2 I'm working on.

As you can see I have a low poly cage and posted the SubD too. I'm in the initial stages of figuring this whole modeling thing out. I was doing everything in poly until someone asked me "are you using tab?" to which my response was of course "huh?"

Tab (SubD in LW) opened up a new world. Before I'd try to round edges with the rounder tool, and it was a real pain. But now in SubD it's a pain to get corners, as you yourself noticed. Not to mention my cage was a perfect match for the reference images, as I can control the position of points very precisely, but with SubD it's more of a guessing game and trial and error, move it a bit this way, a bit that way...I dont know seems less precise.

Thanx to JeffrySG though for shedding light on this. It does make sense to mix poly modeling with SubD. Use SubD to get the roundness, and poly modeling to work the details and straight bits and sharp angles.

Jeffry you said freez the SubD and clean up the mesh? What do you mean by that? I.e remove all unnecessary segments by removing points?

I find it terribly hard to work with a frozen mesh. It adds so many more segments. I mean when you start off in poly it's easy, you have like a dozen points lol. But when you freeze it gets a pain to work with all those points. Like if I try deleting a point, then I get holes in my model, which I have to resurface, and then I have to be careful with vertices cause if there are too many SubD wont even work.

It's good to see someone else on the same boat though. I hope we can share our learning experience under9stars.

Keep it up. I'm learning a lot from this discussion

[D.M.J.]

I notice you're modelling the entire hull, front and back, as the same object. I found that the shapes are sufficiently different for me to model it as two separate objects - the curved "nose" section, and the boxy rear and "undercarriage" section, and just overlap them. The seam along the bottom where the fuselage meets the undercarriage section isn't noticeable (it would just be a pretty sharp corner anyway) and the join between the back of the fuselage and the rear is completely covered by engines, wings, and rear undercarriage sections. But that's because I was happy working that way in Maya.

You've got a good curve on that fuselage, increasing the sharpness of the edges around the cockpit will make it easier to fit the cockpit window. I'll post a wireframe when I get a chance to pull my Viper off a hard drive (old projects never die...).

[under9stars]

Originally Posted by Adalla

Looking good so far m8. Definitely doing a better job than I am. Here is my Mark 2 I'm working on.

As you can see I have a low poly cage and posted the SubD too. I'm in the initial stages of figuring this whole modeling thing out. I was doing everything in poly until someone asked me "are you using tab?" to which my response was of course "huh?"

Tab (SubD in LW) opened up a new world. Before I'd try to round edges with the rounder tool, and it was a real pain. But now in SubD it's a pain to get corners, as you yourself noticed. Not to mention my cage was a perfect match for the reference images, as I can control the position of points very precisely, but with SubD it's more of a guessing game and trial and error, move it a bit this way, a bit that way...I dont know seems less precise.

Thanx to JeffrySG though for shedding light on this. It does make sense to mix poly modeling with SubD. Use SubD to get the roundness, and poly modeling to work the details and straight bits and sharp angles.

Jeffry you said freez the SubD and clean up the mesh? What do you mean by that? I.e remove all unnecessary segments by removing points?

I find it terribly hard to work with a frozen mesh. It adds so many more segments. I mean when you start off in poly it's easy, you have like a dozen points lol. But when you freeze it gets a pain to work with all those points. Like if I try deleting a point, then I get holes in my model, which I have to resurface, and then I have to be careful with vertices cause if there are too many SubD wont even work.

It's good to see someone else on the same boat though. I hope we can share our learning experience under9stars.

Keep it up. I'm learning a lot from this discussion

Hi Adalla (Commander),

Thanks for the comments. Perhaps I can be your wingman once we are finished?

I hear you on difficulty of working with many verts and polys once you freeze. I am not sure what app you are in, but you should be able to dictate the level of subD before freezing, and therefore control your poly count after the operation. I plan on freezing with a subD level of 1, and that should give me enough geometry to ensure a smooth mesh. Also, you might give some serious thought on what you can model before freezing, and applying edge weights to the details that are easier to model with your cage and so that detail will survive the sudD to poly freeze process. For instance, that opening on the side of the fuselage that houses some of the internals, might be best created with the cage since it runs along so much area of the mesh, and therefore would include numerous polys and verts that would have to be shaped later, but better and more manageable with the cage. I actually would love to hear from Jeff and David on how and when they tackled that area.

[under9stars]

Originally Posted by D.M.J.

I notice you're modelling the entire hull, front and back, as the same object. I found that the shapes are sufficiently different for me to model it as two separate objects - the curved "nose" section, and the boxy rear and "undercarriage" section, and just overlap them. The seam along the bottom where the fuselage meets the undercarriage section isn't noticeable (it would just be a pretty sharp corner anyway) and the join between the back of the fuselage and the rear is completely covered by engines, wings, and rear undercarriage sections. But that's because I was happy working that way in Maya.

You've got a good curve on that fuselage, increasing the sharpness of the edges around the cockpit will make it easier to fit the cockpit window. I'll post a wireframe when I get a chance to pull my Viper off a hard drive (old projects never die...).

Hi David,

You're right, the back boxy section probably could or should be a separate mesh and I did consider that. I did find it helped with the transition from the cockpit area to the back to keep them joined, and I was pretty satisfied with what I came up with. Mostly, I have been studying various real models of the viper to get some guidance on how to break up the parts in sections. I know some models are not very accurate, so I am cautious.

-Jeremy

[under9stars]

BTW: Is there an official or unofficial registry for call signs? I would like to declare mine as "Postman", if it has not been taken.

Reason: My 93 year old Grandfather, bless his heart, has always worried about my future, retirement and such. He suggested that I get into the postal service field to ensure a retirement for myself. I tried to explain to him my passion and aspiration to break into the VFX industry, but he was unable to understand what I was saying. So, I came up with the idea of following his advice (obviously not literally) and following my passion at the same time.

[JeffrySG]

Originally Posted by Adalla

Jeffry you said freez the SubD and clean up the mesh? What do you mean by that? I.e remove all unnecessary segments by removing points?

While, I am the furthest thing from the expert on this, I think typically it would mean for you to freeze your mesh. In LW you would go to the general options area - The O key) and set the subdivision level to where you want it) then select the part you want to freeze and select freeze from the CONSTRUCT > CONVERT menu. After you do this you'll have a full poly mesh. Then you can go in and start to remove loops that you just don't need. And by this I mean areas that are very flat would need less geometry than on areas that have a lot of curves. I like to use BANDGLUE for this, as it will remove an entire loop very quickly and cleanly. If you're not familiar with it you should watch this video. When you're done cleaning up your mesh you should have an object that has enough geometry to make it look smooth where it needs to be, but only as much as needed.

Originally Posted by under9stars

BTW: Is there an official or unofficial registry for call signs? I would like to declare mine as "Postman", if it has not been taken. Hope that helps!

Reason: My 93 year old Grandfather, bless his heart, has always worried about my future, retirement and such. He suggested that I get into the postal service field to ensure a retirement for myself. I tried to explain to him my passion and aspiration to break into the VFX industry, but he was unable to understand what I was saying. So, I came up with the idea of following his advice (obviously not literally) and following my passion at the same time.

I'm not sure if there is a official registry, but I've never been one to care much anyway. I think your idea would be much better anyway. For my viper I used a call sign for myself and used 1701 for the number just as a poke towards all the Trek fans here.

The viper is looking nice! keep up the good work!

[D.M.J.]

Indeed, mine is callsign "DMJ" or callsign "Zinc Avenger", depending on which version of textures I use (both names I go by or have gone by), but the registry number is always 2103MJ, my birthday and initials I always try to work in something identifiable (but not immersion-breakingly so) in textures or greebles in case of model or image theft. Not that anyone has or would ever want to steal my models or images

I like to think of it as a form of credits that are harder to remove from the image!

[under9stars]

Hi All

I have an update and a question.

I haven't post lately because I was in fuselage-revision-hell. I finally came up with something I was happy with. I want to finish this model in a reasonable amount of time, so I am trying to ignore my ocd.

Anyway, I am posting my progress. I decided to do some of the model in polys and whatever else I can in subD. So far, it seems the best solution for the fuselage is polys.

My question or request is if anyone has any good ref images the area where the front of the canopy meets the fuselage.



Thanks, and comments are always welcome.

-J

[under9stars]

Originally Posted by under9stars

My question or request is if anyone has any good ref images the area where the front of the canopy meets the fuselage.



Thanks, and comments are always welcome.

-J

Never mind. I looked closer at the refs and saw that the front rim meets the top of the fuselage. If you are looking at the refs from the side, it looks like the canopy angles down lower, but that is because you are seeing the profile of the glass.

[under9stars]

I am not sure how it happened, but tonight I sat down and started cutting away, using some of the things I have seen over the last year, and I was able to get a nice result. I think what was holding me up was me trying so hard to keep the geometry uniform or a certain way. What I did tonight, I know I had tried before, more or less. But I let go of trying to do things perfectly and just kept cutting away and moving forward, checking my render preview for any render issues—there were none. It was sort of like a puzzle really. I first beveled the edge where it was supposed to be a sharp corner, and then cut that newly created poly so the corner had two polys. I then made cuts to join the corner to the surrounding geometry—there were 3 points that had to be connected. I also, initially, had made a loop slice around the entire "hole". Mostly, I need to get over my issue of trying to do things perfectly the first time and accept that I will always learn more as time passes and after much practice, and that I should not let a need to find out the best way of doing something first hold me back from moving forward and just getting the project done.

It also helped to see some other examples of hard-surface subD models—to see how "messy" subD cages can get. This opened me up.

I would still be interested, as would others, I imagine, to see others approach to a subd curved surface with a sharp cornered shape carved in to it.









Now on to the rest of the model!