UES Vanguard - Work Resumes

[Vektor]

Well, it's been a while, but I needed a little break from my USS Grandeur project so I spent a day or so working on an old favorite: The United Earth Ship Vanguard. For those of you who haven't seen her before, she's an experimental starship from the pre-TOS era, about 25 or 30 years older than the original Constitution class. It's been a least a year since I did any work on her and she was overdue for an update.

Before I get into the new stuff, here are a couple WIP images from the archives showing what she looked like at about 80% complete with some temporary textures in place:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_115.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_116.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_108.jpg

I see that SFM is now limiting the number of images per post to four, so keep reading for additional comments and WIP images...

[Vektor]

The Vanguard was mostly done except for some ongoing refinements to the engineering module and the connection between the main hull and the deflector/weapons pod. Oh, and windows, of course. I also wanted to add some smaller details to a few areas like the exposed parts of the impulse engines, which is what I decided to work on yesterday and today:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/wip_001.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/wip_002.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/wip_003.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/wip_004.jpg

As you can see from the wireframe shot, I kinda overdid it on detail, or at least polycount. Everything you see here weighs in at about 33,000 faces. Most of this stuff is barely visible and will rarely be seen close-up, so I will probably go back and do some optimizing at some point.

More to follow...

[Vektor]

Finally, here are a couple shots with of the whole ship with the engines in place. You'll note that the temporary textures are gone for the moment and a few parts and pieces are missing due to geometry that got corrupted between software versions and will have to be rebuilt, fortunately nothing major.

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/wip_005.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/wip_006.jpg

I'll be back working on the Grandeur tomorrow and will probably re-open a WIP thread for it before the weekend is out, but I will continue to make progress on the Vanguard from time to time when I need some more variety.

[ST-One]

I never thought to see this ship again...

Great work on those details :thumb:

The windows are a bit smaller now?

[Choo1701]

thud. ow....


The engines are amazing...lots of nice deatil....:D

[Captain Boh]

it LIVES!

Great to see you working on this again. Inspiring work.

[starbright]

I saw this ship on Trek BBS and it got me interested in 3D Modeling.

I am still in very early learning mode. Have been for two years now. :o

Just wanted to say that I am a fan of your work. :)

[HawkMan]

Well as anyone know I'm no trek fan ;)

But this is very good work. nice smoth modeling, lots of nice details and exposed machinery is allways a plus :)

[backstept]

wow I remember this shippy
those impulse engines are insanely awesome
heck the whole thing is awesome :D

[BorgMan]

Wow Vek, those impulse engines are insanely detailed! Good job!

[Freak]

Have not seen this before. but Nice!
The detail on the engine is fantasitic.

[Dark Angel]

Very nice, beautiful! I love the guns on the side of the saucer.

[Obi Wan]

Very well done until now.
The details on engines are amazing.

Congratulations.

[theCommander]

Looking great, Vektor!
I can't wait till Grandeur-A looks this good!

[Vektor]

Don't fret, Commander, the Grandeur is still at the top of my list. I've just been hitting it really hard the last few days and I needed to do something different for a little while.

[theCommander]

Don't fret, Commander, the Grandeur is still at the top of my list. I've just been hitting it really hard the last few days and I needed to do something different for a little while.
:cool: Fret... why am I fretting? I love the Vanny too! Hay, I work with twenty guys who are always on the go and I am the one that feeds their work projects to them, so I understand the "gotta get away" thing.

Eh, it's going to be a pain just to get the G-A thread back up and running. Don't kill yourself, it'll be there.

I love your impulse drive close-ups/details! That's great, Vek! Good Vanny Tech-manual stuff!!

[vf-1msx]

great work:D

ITS base on one of the old ships right?????????

[baxart]

GASP! You rock!
wow!

[[Irishman]]

Vektor,

You are the gold standard, my man! I bow to your mad skillz!

[prfz00m]

Very cool. You don't normally see good pre-TOS ships (especially with an NX design lineage), but this is one of them.

[Vektor]

The windows are a bit smaller now?

Nope, they're exactly the size and shape they were before, though I have something different in mind for them down the road.

[Vektor]

great work:D

ITS base on one of the old ships right?????????

Well, it was intended to fit stylistically into the TOS or pre-TOS era.

[Vektor]

Very cool. You don't normally see good pre-TOS ships (especially with an NX design lineage), but this is one of them.

You might rationalize an NX design lineage for continuity purposes, but in truth I created the basic design for this ship at least ten years before the NX-01 made its debut on ENT. It even predates the Akira class, so no influences there either. If anything is traceable to one of those other ships, it would probably be the location of the impulse engines, which I changed after seeing the way they were done on the NX-01 (it just made more sense).

[Dark Angel]

Vektor, you truely are awesome, keep the updates coming!:D

[CrimsonLine]

This has been one of my favorite ships for a long while. It's great to see her again, and get some new WIP images!

[biotech]

Its been too long, its good to see the old girl again!

[Captain Boh]

You might rationalize an NX design lineage for continuity purposes, but in truth I created the basic design for this ship at least ten years before the NX-01 made its debut on ENT. It even predates the Akira class, so no influences there either. If anything is traceable to one of those other ships, it would probably be the location of the impulse engines, which I changed after seeing the way they were done on the NX-01 (it just made more sense).

Any influence from the Loknar?

[jpgauvin]

Great work

The ship is pretty cool and the detail on those engine... Wow !! :)

[Nevets]

I like this ship. I remember the videos with the shuttlecraft coming out. Very, very nice.

[Vektor]

Any influence from the Loknar?

Not really. I think I was dimly aware of the Loknar from some of the old FASA game stuff but there was certainly no conscious effort to immitate it.

[Legolas25]

Wow, that's really really cool!

Hehe, you wouldn't happen to have a sideview, would you?

[BoogerMc]

Well, I don't remember seeing this one, but as usual, it takes my breath away. What more can I say except...OXYGEN, I NEED OXYGEN!

[larundel]

WOW...this ships looks amazing.

[Aethernaut]

Wow. The Vanguard is a real looker!

[jay-mo]

I'm glad you brought this beauty back. New stuff looks great. Great work Vektor.

[dru]

Glad to see this surface again. Tis a great little ship.

[OhCaptainMyCaptain]

Wow! Now that, my friend, is what they should have used in Enterprise! Bravo!

[DamienNZ]

Cest Magnifique

[Comco]

There's so much I really like about this design...The first thing I noticed on look at her was the partially exposed warp core conduit things running to the nacelles...I'm not sure about the actual Treknological engineering of it...It would make more sense to have them heavily shielded wouldn't it? But at any rate, it looks DAMN cool. :) I also like the little details like the shuttlebay control / observation rooms (I assume that's what they are)...It looks cool and would make for a hell of a nice view if you were ever to model the interior and do a scene looking out into towards the shuttlebays...

I usually don't like much at all about Pre-TOS-type designs but this one is fantastic. Looking foward to updates. :)

[mental|plate]

Dude you are insane, like in insane detailed ship you have there :),
and the renders look nice :)

[RiCkFX]

man vektor, this is a typical masterpiece of you, great work! go on like that!

[BAKMS]

Very KEWL !

[Freak]

As the header are back up and this is one of the first to go. Let me be the frist to congratualte you!

[Dallidas]

wow! one of the best trek ships i have ever seen!

[robert]

this is soo cool. it has a bit of original series feel to it (yay the sixties ;)) but on the other hand it looks so sleek and cool-modern...
wow...id like to play with this...*drool*

question: are the textures really just temporary, they seem so perfect.

[deg3D]

Much coolness. Much. :)

deg

[ns_exile]

Excellent ship, Vektor, I love the detail! Definitely header-worthy.

[scifieric]

Any influence from the Loknar?
I was going to ask if there was any influence from The Bonaventure from TAS (not that anyone would ever admit that, LOL).

[al3d]

OH>.i missed that one..:)..so many trek thread we can't see them all..but this is excellent man..:)...only Comment would be that the housing of the Impusle drive is a bit plain compared to the engine themself....:)..but the rest is damn cool man

[baptiste11]

The engines is exelents, it is super I like much, that could be still better in textures, but the effects gives a style to your work, it east exelent.

[D.M.J.]

A good-looking early starship that looks good but does not look like it is light years ahead of Kirk's old wagon!

[Dark Saber]

This is a great little ship, I am glad to see her again.

[Vektor]

Wow, that's really really cool!

Hehe, you wouldn't happen to have a sideview, would you?

I do indeed:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_107.jpg

[SDGreywolf]

Vek,

Very sweet design. Like the fact you made a pre-TOS Starship.

[Vektor]

The first thing I noticed on look at her was the partially exposed warp core conduit things running to the nacelles...I'm not sure about the actual Treknological engineering of it...It would make more sense to have them heavily shielded wouldn't it? But at any rate, it looks DAMN cool. :)

There's been a lot of debate about that. Personally, I don't think TOS era ship designs ever took the possible lack of shields or structural integrity fields into account. Just look at the popsickle stick nacelle struts on the original Enterprise and tell me those things would withstand more than a phaser hit or two without shields to protect them. Or how about the ship battle in Star Trek VI when Chang's bird of prey put a photon torpedo clean through the Enterprise's unshielded primary hull?

Still, such sensitive components as the warp conduits probably would be enclosed on any ordinary ship, but the Vanguard comes from a rather unique background. The short version is that it was built as an experimental testbed for much of the technology that was being developed for the original Constitution class. It was based on an earlier ship class and extensively modified to accept modular components like the engineering section, the bridge module and the deflector/weapons pod, thus facilitating frequent changeouts and upgrades as the design progressed. That's why this ship looks the way it does and why so many components are left exposed rather than buttoned-up as they would be normally.


I also like the little details like the shuttlebay control / observation rooms (I assume that's what they are)...It looks cool and would make for a hell of a nice view if you were ever to model the interior and do a scene looking out into towards the shuttlebays...

Not exactly 3D, but this should give you an idea of what that would look like:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/Concept_01.JPG

[Vektor]

this is soo cool. it has a bit of original series feel to it (yay the sixties ;)) but on the other hand it looks so sleek and cool-modern...

That was exactly my intent. I wanted to create a ship that looked like it belonged in the original Star Trek but also like something we might actually build in a couple hundred years.


question: are the textures really just temporary, they seem so perfect.

The textures on the nacelles were on their way to being final but almost everything else was just a generic hull plate texture and some careful UV mapping.

By the way, the nacelle domes are not textured, they're fully modelled.

[Vektor]

I was going to ask if there was any influence from The Bonaventure from TAS (not that anyone would ever admit that, LOL).

Definitely not.

[Vektor]

...only Comment would be that the housing of the Impusle drive is a bit plain compared to the engine themself....:)..but the rest is damn cool man

Thanks! I still have some work to do in those areas that should spruce them up a bit.

[Vektor]

As long as I'm on a roll here, I might as well post a few more of the old renderings:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_086.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_088.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_090.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_092.jpg

[Vektor]

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_093.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_094.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_101.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_103.jpg

[baxart]

Sweet! You never disapoint!

[Vektor]

One last thing: Here's a shuttle design that was originally intended to go with the Vanguard. I first posted it back in the run-up to ENT's premier about five years ago as a conjectural design for what I thought they should use on the show, thus the "NX-01/2" registry.

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/NX-01_shuttle.jpg

I really need to get this built in 3D one of these days but I don't know when I'll find the time. I might even consider letting someone else tackle it if there are any takers.

[dunkellic]

woah dude, youre not only a god at 3d artship, but you can also draw more than well O_O

[Tovette]

hey looking good there bud!

[USS Mariner]

Holy shuttle!

[robert]

more pictures more pictures more picturesmore pictures...we want more :D

:eek:


By the way, the nacelle domes are not textured, they're fully modelled.
could you post a wireframe so we can see how you achieve this light effect?

another question: is this vray/brazil etc.? or just lighttracer/ build in max renderer

[Helot]

I have some of the original images you did of this way back. Great updates - awesome ship.

[Vektor]

woah dude, youre not only a god at 3d artship, but you can also draw more than well O_O

I was drawing stuff by hand long before I got into 3D. I am also a trained draftsman and have some experience as an illustrator and graphic artist. Too bad I can't find a job doing any of that. :/

[Vektor]

could you post a wireframe so we can see how you achieve this light effect?

Actually, a wireframe probably wouldn't be too helpful. I really shouldn't have said they aren't textured because the texturing and materials play a BIG part in how they look. At some point I'll have to break down the process I went through to create them and how the effect is achieved.


another question: is this vray/brazil etc.? or just lighttracer/ build in max renderer

Most of the stuff I've posted in this thread was rendered with the standard scanline renderer and a sphere of shadow-mapped spotlights for global illumination. The most recent stuff showing the detailed impulse engines was done with Lighttracer. It's slower but considerably better quality.

[Nutsy]

WOHA Seriously cool detail there m8... Cant wait to see her animated ;D

[BorgMan]

One last thing: Here's a shuttle design that was originally intended to go with the Vanguard. I first posted it back in the run-up to ENT's premier about five years ago as a conjectural design for what I thought they should use on the show, thus the "NX-01/2" registry.

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/NX-01_shuttle.jpg

I really need to get this built in 3D one of these days but I don't know when I'll find the time. I might even consider letting someone else tackle it if there are any takers.

Well, my 3D experiences are very limited, but I am willing to try to make it in SketchUp, or, if you want me too, to sketch a kick-ass action scene with the Vanguard. You know how to contact me ;)

[Eoraptor]

Hey, would it be possible to get a bottom perspective?

[Ozylot]

Pretty cool ship! I like it!

It almost seems a little more advanced then the connie.

[Jenny]

What is that on the downward extention, just above the deflector dish? Those two things that look kind of like Firefly-style engines?

[scifieric]

I want to see something like The Vektor Illustrations book!

[Vektor]

Well, my 3D experiences are very limited, but I am willing to try to make it in SketchUp, or, if you want me too, to sketch a kick-ass action scene with the Vanguard. You know how to contact me ;)

Well, I suppose it's open to anyone who wants to try it, but I have no idea if SketchUp is compatible with Max.

[Vektor]

Hey, would it be possible to get a bottom perspective?

Just for you:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/wip_007.jpg

[Vektor]

What is that on the downward extention, just above the deflector dish? Those two things that look kind of like Firefly-style engines?

Those would be the photon torpedo launchers. Here's a better view from before the textures were removed:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_100.jpg

And here's a slightly altered version I'm still toying with using:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_104.jpg

[Lee80]

Looks good. I like the top one...:)

[Vektor]

Oh, and just for kicks, here's a design variant with an extended hull for extra cargo capacity:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_134.jpg

[BorgMan]

Vek, SketchUp can export to .3ds, is that usable?

[EDIT] I... Don't know if I like that extended version...

[Vektor]

Vek, SketchUp can export to .3ds, is that usable?

I can import .3ds but results often vary and any texturing work would probably be unusable.

[Ramiel]

Your work is simply OUTSTANDING!

[gthompsn]

Oh, and just for kicks, here's a design variant with an extended hull for extra cargo capacity... I actually like this variant a little better. Both versions are very believable pre-TOS ships. Nice job!

[Captain Boh]

One last thing: Here's a shuttle design that was originally intended to go with the Vanguard. I first posted it back in the run-up to ENT's premier about five years ago as a conjectural design for what I thought they should use on the show, thus the "NX-01/2" registry.

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/NX-01_shuttle.jpg

I really need to get this built in 3D one of these days but I don't know when I'll find the time. I might even consider letting someone else tackle it if there are any takers.


I'd been looking for this for a long time, you always had the thumbnail on your site, but not the full sized one. Do you still have the NX-01 underside concept you did when all we knew was the top view?

[Vektor]

Do you still have the NX-01 underside concept you did when all we knew was the top view?

You mean this one? :D

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NX-01_under.jpg

Or something a little less whimsical, like this one?

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NX-01_05.jpg

[Captain Boh]

Second one. Easily one of the best ways I've seen to get a deflector on to a saucer section.

[scifieric]

That last sketch is major cool!

[Tallguy]

This is by far my favorite of all the work you've done Vektor.

[admiral horton]

the job you've done is brillant very nice job!

[Rook2Bishop]

I feel inadequate... the images in this thread are AWESOME!!!!

LONG LIVE SCIFI-MESHES.COM!!!!

[Masterjedi]

Excellent work on this design. I like that you haven't used the pre-TOS to mean simple and clunky. Very nice indeed.

[Cincinnatus]

Hot damn. Zimmerman should have come here for ideas.

[Berticus]

I'm not a StarTrek guy... but this is just cool.

I want to complain about the engines though. You have these really cool engines and you stuff them in this big box with loads of space around them.

Very coo!

-albert

PS-My dad says this thing is just a smoke detector with some beer bottles strapped to it...

[BorgMan]

OMFG! IT'S THE FLYING SMOKE DETECTOR! :lol:

[Freak]

LOL

Love the shuttle very cool. It fix into the timeline very well. I like variant. could be more of a Cargo ship than test ship. but still very cool!

[Larsen]

Awsome modeling man!... looks very cool!

[SnowCrash]

Love those wireframes of the engines earlier - always nice to see something that makes me immediately try out a new modelling idea - excellent stuff. Btw, how did you do the pipes??

[biotech]

I love the stretch hull varient.

But its all good.

[Dark Saber]

You mean this one? :D

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NX-01_under.jpg

Or something a little less whimsical, like this one?

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NX-01_05.jpg


Very cool, They should of looked to this for the NX. I like the one they came up with but this bottom makes more sense. Great sketches:p

[elisandra]

This ship is simply stunning, a good flyby target for a fed news cam. Absolutly brilliant :D

[baxart]

Looks great!! I want to see that shuttle in 3d!

[Zabiegly]

All i see are red x'es

[scifieric]

Apparently Zabiegly's signature really does apply to him! LOL!

[Vektor]

Love those wireframes of the engines earlier - always nice to see something that makes me immediately try out a new modelling idea - excellent stuff. Btw, how did you do the pipes??

In Max, ordinary splines can be made renderable with the click of a checkbox and by specifying diameter and the number of segments around. That's how most of the pipes and conduits on the impulse engines were done.

[Vektor]

Looks great!! I want to see that shuttle in 3d!

I was being totally serious about letting someone else model it if they're interested. There are many people here on Scifi-Meshes that I would trust with the task.

[scifieric]

I'd love to see this built. I can imagine seeing Kirk and Mendez using this older version of the shuttle to catch the Enterprise in The Menagerie part I.

When will you repost your two Enterprise works and your Constitution Class? Those were VERY instructional!

(I'm a pig. I'm at a royal feast and I ask for my favorite candy bar instead of just being glad for the deserts in front of me. Shameful.) :D

[JeffrySG]

wonderful model and texture work!!!

[nhall]

Originally Posted by baxart
Looks great!! I want to see that shuttle in 3d!

Ask and ye shall recieve. I don't know if I'm the right guy to do this -- I'm fairly new to Lightwave, and I'm not really sure how to do curved structures (those that are curved in multiple ways, such as the edges on an ipod or something -- In fact, I'd appreciate some help with that... :D ) But I just had to give it a go. Here's what I've got so far. Vektor, I hope it meets with your approval so far.

Cheers,
Nick

[Jenny]

Vektor, I'm doing an Empress Marava from Traveler, converted over to use in the Serenity RPG. Your impulse engines would make great Tokamak / thruster combinations. Do you mind if I borrow the design?

[Valdisb]

I like the way you've made this ship a true "transition" in styles, from the NX to the Constellation. By moving the deflector dish, you let the saucer be its own shape. Excellent attention to detail, especially the use of space in the support pylons with 2 landing bays and observation/control rooms. I can't wait to see it finished!!!

[Vektor]

Ask and ye shall recieve. I don't know if I'm the right guy to do this -- I'm fairly new to Lightwave, and I'm not really sure how to do curved structures (those that are curved in multiple ways, such as the edges on an ipod or something -- In fact, I'd appreciate some help with that... :D ) But I just had to give it a go. Here's what I've got so far. Vektor, I hope it meets with your approval so far.

Looks like you're off to a good start. You're really gonna need those multi-directional curves to model this shuttle accurately, though, and I can't help you there since I'm not a Lightwave user.

[Vektor]

Vektor, I'm doing an Empress Marava from Traveler, converted over to use in the Serenity RPG. Your impulse engines would make great Tokamak / thruster combinations. Do you mind if I borrow the design?

Not at all. In fact, a Tokamak/thruster combination was pretty much what I had in mind when I was designing them.

By the way, I'm currently running a Serenity game myself. It's a really fun universe to play in.

[Vektor]

I like the way you've made this ship a true "transition" in styles, from the NX to the Constellation.

I assume you mean Constitution class. I feel the need to point out, however, that I created the basic design for this ship LONG before the NX-01 was ever dreamed of. It was never intended to be "transitional," though it may very well fit that roll. If anything, it was intended to fit in a particular place in Trek history, about 25 or 30 years prior to TOS, and thus has a much closer stylistic connection to the Constitution class.

[Cincinnatus]

In reference to the penant on the saucer, would the UESPA still be around in the 2330s? I thought it was replaced by Starfleet before ENT.

[Makotokat]

Love that shuttle concept as well Vektor!

[RevanRa]

wow love this !!!

[Vektor]

In reference to the penant on the saucer, would the UESPA still be around in the 2330s? I thought it was replaced by Starfleet before ENT.

Kirk made reference to UESPA in at least one first season TOS episode, and this ship is from 25 or 30 years prior to that time.

Personally, I tend to look at Trek continuity in terms of TOS first and foremost. Not that I didn't like ENT, which I did for the most part, but on those occasions when the two run into conflict continuity-wise, I side with TOS.

Look at it this way: UESPA stands for "United Earth Space Probe Agency," the key words being "United Earth." This suggests that UESPA dates from a time before the Federation. It also seems to have been a civilian organization similar to NASA, and probably had a relationship with Starfleet similar to the one between NASA and the US military, both of which have been known to work on the others' behalf from time to time.

My theory is that even as late as Kirk's original five-year mission, UESPA was still the controlling authority for non-military space exploration and scientific research missions. Kirk's Enterprise was a Starfleet vessel but they were nominally working for UESPA during those five years, at least when they weren't doing battle with the Klingons, Romulans and such.

Another theory of mine is that the Federation economy in those days was still basically capitalist in nature, as evidenced by several TOS references to credits, "earning your pay for the week" and so forth. A lot of technological research and development was still done by the private sector under government contracts. When the Constitution class development project was undertaken, much of it was handed out to corporations and other private interests under the umbrella of UESPA, which built the Vanguard as an experimental testbed for all the new technology, though it was originally known only as "Number Thirteen." Why? Because it was based on an older ship class with many functional similarities to the proposed Constitution class, twelve of which had been built, served out their operational lifetimes and been decommissioned. Number Thirteen was only superficially similar to its predecessors, but the name stuck.

You also have to understand that this ship was actually created as the vehicle for a TOS prequel series I conceived clear back in the early '90s. The premise of the series was that a crisis arose, something that only Number Thirteen was equipped to deal with by virtue of all its cutting edge technology. The ship was given a Starfleet commission, registry number 147. A Starfleet officer and veteran of the Battle of Donatu V was placed in temporary command and it was he who gave it a proper name, Vanguard. If you look closely, you may even notice that the name on the nacelles in the textured WIP images is actually painted over top of the hastily whited-out stripe. The new captain refused to leave drydock without it.

As for the UESPA pennant, well, they just never got around to removing it.

Long answer to a short question. ;)

[Captain Boh]

It should also be noted that the UESPA hasn't been replaced by Earth Starfleet in Enterprise.

[Majestic]

I like what I am seeing.

[Makotokat]

Still one of my favourite ships!

[DarkMecha]

looks great! im really loving the old skool - new skool look about it

[Vektor]

It should also be noted that the UESPA hasn't been replaced by Earth Starfleet in Enterprise.

It should also be noted that the logo and pennant I created for UESPA long predates the one used in that ENT episode. Perhaps I'll change mine to match.

[Vektor]

You know, I've been doing some thinking. This ship is arguably my best creative work ever, at least I think so, and I'd really like to see something more come of it than a collection of beauty shots and desktop wallpapers. With that in mind, I have a question for all of you: Who out there would like to see this ship appear in the next Star Trek film?

By all accounts, Trek XI will be set a few years prior to The Original Series, which is the exact time period the Vanguard was designed for. It may have to have a different name depending on the storyline, but this ship was quite literally made for the kind of new yet familiar vision of Star Trek that J.J. Abrams has been tasked with. I am thinking of launching a campaign to make this happen.

Yes, this is a totally self-serving effort. Yes, I would kill to see something I had created up on the big screen in the next Trek film. Yes, I would like very much to be compensated handsomely for it. Yes, I probably am insane to think I have a chance in hell of competing with the likes of Rick Sternbach and Doug Drexler.

But somebody's ship design is going to wind up in that film. I know for a fact that the Vanguard has been popular with a lot of people, including some industry insiders who have seen it and commented favorably on it, Mr. Sternbach for one. I may get laughed off the forum, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

So what do you all think? Bearing in mind that I still have some finishing work to do on the 3D model, is it worthy of a TOS-era feature film, and would you be willing to support my efforts to make that happen?

If you like, you can also visit a poll thread I created on TrekBBS (http://www.trekbbs.com/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=6100408&an=0&page=0#Post6100408) and cast your vote yay or nay. All comments are appreciated both here and there.

[Tallguy]

Vektor, I would love to see this on the big screen. I think this is your greatest work, and I'm glad to know you agree.

I figure the odds would be against you, but that's what makes it fun. It'd be a terrific achievment both in style as well as "local boy makes good".

Didn't Mike Okuda get his start by mailing in screen designs that got used in ST IV?

[traq]

yay!
I've loved the Vanguard since I first saw her. She deserves the spotlight much more than the NX-01. My concern with putting her on the big screeen is the story that she may end up with - my faith in Star Trek to come out with a good one has been severely shaken in the past years. She deserves to be in something like Diane Carey's Final Frontier, not the next Nemesis.
My advice: protect her carefully untill you've found a story you think worthy of her.

[CrimsonLine]

Dude, this ship is one of my favorite designs, *ever.* She should certainly be considered.

[Helot]

It's definitely screen worthy. One of the most original designs out there for some time. I'm afraid, though, that we will see some design that will have no proper lineage to the TOS era ships we all (and all Trek fans) know and understand.

But, here's to hope! :D

[Vektor]

I actually have quite a bit of faith in Abrams to maintain a recognizable connection with TOS. I think he's smart enough and enough of a fan himself to know that certain elements need to be kept.

[CrimsonLine]

Good idea. Start expressing your faith in him now, before hiring decisions are made. Ya brown-noza! :)

Actually, I happen to agree with you, and I'm not lobbying for a job, a'tall.

[Vektor]

Well, to be accurate, I'm not really bucking for a job per se, I'm just looking for a way to get this ship into the next film. Not that would turn down an offer to contribute something more, but that's not my primary goal.

[Jenny]

I'm for it.

[scifieric]

Well, I would assume that an animation would probably help. The better she looks in action, the more of a chance it would impress the right people ... right?

[Dann-O]

Well good to see a great work in progress. I am sorry I di dnto se ethis earlier. It would be great to see a few shots of it cruising around get a better feel for the ship.

[al3d]

anything submited off the proper channels will not even be looked at unfortunaly. a few groups are preparing Demos to be showed to the Producers of new design style and ideas on new concept. so far we and the other group are all LW and Maya group, get in touch with me if you want me to show off your renders to our group, and we would need to find a way to do a Max-LW converstion to use it if you want. Message me

Thanks and good work

[Nebula]

AH man that is sweet :D

[The Accuser]

You know, there are times that I hate looking at your work, Vektor. It makes me realize how much I need to improve in my own modeling. :lol:

Seriously, though, so awesome. So very awesome!

[REL777]

This is the coolest design I've ever seen for a pre-TOS or TOS ship.

This view vaguely reminds me of the DS9 Defiant.



http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/NCC-147/wip_103.jpg

[gthompsn]

This is the coolest design I've ever seen for a pre-TOS or TOS ship.

This view vaguely reminds me of the DS9 Defiant.Honestly, I'm not much of a fan of TOS era Federation or Romulan ships, but I am a huge fan of the Vanguard...

[Daringer]

looks damn good...i like the details...mmmmm..details...

[Freak]

Good luck are trying to get it in the new movie. It would look cool on the big screen!

[mikephys]

Well, to be accurate, I'm not really bucking for a job per se, I'm just looking for a way to get this ship into the next film. Not that would turn down an offer to contribute something more, but that's not my primary goal.

PLEASE send this ship and other Star Trek work you have done to J.J. Abrams and company. If he does in fact do a prequel, we might as well get a ship that fits into the timeline and is awesome to look at.

Ever consider sending your stuff to Rick Sternbach? If he gets the job, he might bring you along. :thumb:

Just some thoughts.

[Vektor]

Well, I would assume that an animation would probably help. The better she looks in action, the more of a chance it would impress the right people ... right?

I am presently working on some updates to the Vanguard, including a short animation to show it off a little better. I'm also working on a couple of paying jobs which have priority at the moment, not to mention the Grandeur, so it's probably going to be at least a week before I have anything more to show.

[Vektor]

You know, there are times that I hate looking at your work, Vektor. It makes me realize how much I need to improve in my own modeling. :lol:

That's kind of you to say, but you should look at it as an inspiration if you really feel that way. Whenever I see stuff other people have done that just knocks my socks off, I start looking for ways to get that good myself. Don't compare your work to other peoples', just use theirs as a milestone for your own improvement. :thumb:

[Vektor]

PLEASE send this ship and other Star Trek work you have done to J.J. Abrams and company. If he does in fact do a prequel, we might as well get a ship that fits into the timeline and is awesome to look at.

As al3d pointed out, you can't just send something like this to someone like J.J. Abrams and expect them to ever look at it. If they didn't make it a matter of policy to avoid such unsolicited submissions like the plague, anybody could sue them for supposedly stealing a design they sent in if something even remotely similar gets used. They're just not going to open themselves up to that kind of liability.

It's like the USS Titan design contest Pocket Books ran a while back. It was specified in the contest rules that all submissions would become the property of Paramount and/or Pocket Books whether they won the contest or not. That was so nobody could come back and sue them if their design or anything similar to it was ever actually used for anything.

There will be people submitting stuff for the producers to look at but they will do so only after being granted permission and after legal arrangements are made to protect the parties involved. My best hope of getting the Vanguard in front of Abrams is to somehow hook up with one or more of those people, which is why I made this whole campaign public in the first place.


Ever consider sending your stuff to Rick Sternbach? If he gets the job, he might bring you along. :thumb:

Mr. Sternbach is familiar with the Vanguard and has had some very nice things to say about it in the past. He is also aware of my efforts to get the Vanguard into the next Trek film. Whatever assistance he is willing and able to give me if he is ever in a position to do so is entirely up to him.

[The Accuser]

That's kind of you to say, but you should look at it as an inspiration if you really feel that way. Whenever I see stuff other people have done that just knocks my socks off, I start looking for ways to get that good myself. Don't compare your work to other peoples', just use theirs as a milestone for your own improvement. :thumb:


I do at that. I love the detail that you put into your work and it has always inspired me to seek better ways to do things in my own work. I know that when I see your name on a thread, the work is going to be awesome. :)

[scifieric]

I am presently working on some updates to the Vanguard, including a short animation to show it off a little better.
Ah, great. I'm looking forward to seeing it!

[gthompsn]

As al3d pointed out, you can't just send something like this to someone like J.J. Abrams and expect them to ever look at it. If they didn't make it a matter of policy to avoid such unsolicited submissions like the plague, anybody could sue them for supposedly stealing a design they sent in if something even remotely similar gets used. They're just not going to open themselves up to that kind of liability...Mr. Sternbach is familiar with the Vanguard and has had some very nice things to say about it in the past. He is also aware of my efforts to get the Vanguard into the next Trek film. Whatever assistance he is willing and able to give me if he is ever in a position to do so is entirely up to him.

As al3d also pointed out, he would be willing to help you move it through proper channels...it is unfortunate that such precautions are necessary, but I would much rather see them take those precautions and avoid having an otherwise great effort ruined for everyone by a few troublemakers.


Don't compare your work to other peoples', just use theirs as a milestone for your own improvement
Great advice...

...as for the rest, take your time. In skydiving we say "slow is fast", meaning that if you do have to err a little, its better to go a little slower and get get it right than to go too quickly and miss a connection point. Same applies to software. Much of my career has been involved in rescuing troubled projects because the original team (usually management mandated) did not take the time to do it right the first time.

[Vektor]

As al3d also pointed out, he would be willing to help you move it through proper channels...

And I was quick to accept his offer. We've discussed it and things are moving forward. My next step is to do some additional work on the model and we'll see where things go from there.

[larundel]

that looks cool vector...loving the secound scetch of an nx class....do you have a book lying around anywhere what i can read to become as good as you?

[Vektor]

that looks cool vector...loving the secound scetch of an nx class...

>Sigh.<

Honestly, the Vanguard has nothing to do with the NX-01. It wasn't inspired by the NX-01. It wasn't intended to look like the NX-01. It wasn't intended to fill any evolutionary gap between the NX-01 and anything else. The Vanguard was conceived on paper back in '94 or '95 and first modeled in very primitive form in AutoCAD. A much better version was built in TrueSpace around '98. It made the leap to 3ds Max in 2000 and has been evolving and refining itself ever since.

Some time in 2000, the premise for Star Trek: ENTERPRISE got out on the Internet and lots of people started speculating on what the new ship would look like. A friend and I had been cooking up ideas for a new Trek fanfic (actually what we wanted to see in a new television series but we knew Paramount wasn't likely to hire us for that), which centered on the Vanguard. When ENTERPRISE came along, the premise was so similar that I decided to rechristen the Vanguard as the U.E.S. Enterprise and throw it out there to see what kind of response I would get. Most people liked it. A couple even thought it was an official design being floated on the Web as a trial balloon by the show's producers.

Then came the famous TV Guide top view. Imagine my astonishment when the real official design turned out to have the same basic configuration as the Vanguard. :eek: Of course, that was pretty much where the similarities ended, but the coincidence still pretty much blew my mind.

But the bottom-line is that's all it was, a coincidence. I don't mean to seem exasperated but I'm tired of people trying to classify the Vanguard as some derivative of the NX-01 when, chronologically at least, it was the other way around. The only thing the Vanguard owes to the NX-01 is the location of its impulse engines which, I admit, were influenced by th NX-01. That's it.


do you have a book lying around anywhere what i can read to become as good as you?

Do a search on Amazon for any book by a guy named Ted Boardman. Of all the books I've read on using 3ds Max effectively, his nail it in the clearest, most concise and most insightful manner. He's a professional trainer and lecturer and he knows how to get information across in a way you can understand it and really use it. He also maintains a regular column on a site named www.cgarchitect.com, which is chock-full of little tricks, tips and techniques for doing all sorts of stuff, much of it related to architecture but useful in other ways, too.

In fact, I give Ted Boardman a lot of the credit for helping me figure out how to do projects like the one I'm working on right now that I'm actually getting paid for. It's a new building on the WSU campus here in Spokane that they haven't even broke ground on yet:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/ICN_15a.jpg

This is actually a revamped version of some daytime renderings I posted in a "What I've been working on" thread back before SFM went up in smoke the last time. A little over a week ago I was asked to update the model to the latest design plans, fill in a truckload of extra details and convert it to a nighttime environment with interior and exterior lighting. The rendering above was done last night and it's about 90% finished. Just need to add more lights to that front section on the left and some interior details in the larger rooms. This is why you haven't seen any progress from me this week on either the Vanguard or the Grandeur.

By the way, there are over 150 lights in that scene and it's broken into three separate files: one for the interior, one for the building exterior, and one for grounds surrounding it. All three are XREF'd into a single scene with the GI lighting rig for rendering. The entire scene consists of about 115,000 faces and is radiosity rendered. The image above took an hour and forty minutes to render on my current system.

Totally off-topic but not completely irrelevant. ;)

[scifieric]

Whu ... wow! Nice rendering!

[Beowulf]

JAW ---FLOOR. oh my god, i want to cry.
Sweet work man, Ah what could have been...
Lets see more varients!

[Berticus]

I can only aspire to work like this... And then save up for 3DS max...

But, the program doesn't make the artist, so....

Great work!
-albert

[theCommander]

:thumb: Good luck, my friend! She's coming along very nicely! I love this ship!!

:cool: She would look fine and dandy up on the big screen. I actually was a big fan of the pre-NX-01 stuff you did and would have swore by it that your stuff was right off of the design room floor at Paramount. It actually attracted enough of my attention to garner my approach to you for the Grandeur-A Project way back. I remember Rick really liking the design too. I'll do what I can to give you a boost when I can, my friend... keep her comin!

Oh, if you can spare it, do up some hi-res orthos on white for a set of my CGI Schematics. I'll make them candid to you first and go from there, but Drex was pretty impressed with that look (hint-hint). IMHO

[DiSiLLUSiON]

I really, really like the back portion of the two ehh 'catamaran' hulls. However, the stubbyness of the nacelles and the roundness of the saucer rim do seem to 'extremize' each other. But still, the detail is amazing, I like it.

[Mr. Wilde]

Then came the famous TV Guide top view. Imagine my astonishment when the real official design turned out to have the same basic configuration as the Vanguard. :eek: Of course, that was pretty much where the similarities ended, but the coincidence still pretty much blew my mind.

Haha, oh yeah, I know how that feels. But it tells you that you could be part of the succesful mainstream, and that's not a bad thing. ;)

[loRdzeRo]

hmm grat job on the ship !! nice design

by the way your lightsetup OWNS !! maybe you can post your settings =D ?

[theCommander]

Haha, oh yeah, I know how that feels. But it tells you that you could be part of the succesful mainstream, and that's not a bad thing. ;)
Agreed. Aside from the fact that they are just one step ahead of you, you are pretty par with them, I'd say. Just getting over that little hump might take a huge group effort. Not many get in, but they do occasionally. I say shoot good and hard. Be almost obnoxious if you have to. Like a little kid, pulling at their shirt-tails when he wants a cookie or something. Eventually they might give ear just to get you to stop. :) It worked for me back with SSI/TSR when I was doing module art for them (Moore/Gigax) and doing an ink job on a back-story in Batman in '86. It works!

[shipfisher]

The shuttle concept is fantastic :thumb:

[Vektor]

Well, I'm sure this will come as a shock to all of you, but I've decided to rebuild the Vanguard from scratch. I'm doing this for the following reasons:

1. The most common criticism I've received about this ship is that it is slightly too compact. Other adjectives often used include "stout," "stubby," "blunt," "chubby," and so forth. Some of these comments have come from people who have evaluated it on a professional level in connection with my efforts to bring it to the attention of the producers of the next Trek film; therefore, I am obliged not to completely ignore them. I am re-proportioning some of its major components in an effort to address these comments without totally abandoning its "compactness," which I feel is an important part of its unique character.

2. The current model has been stretched, tweaked, pulled, bent, chopped, merged, rescaled and reconfigured so many times that a significant number of precision errors and geometric faults have crept in, enough that certain parts of the model have begun to suffer visibly in close-up renders. Since I'm re-proportioning the major pieces anyway, I figured now was a good time to rebuild some of them and restore the model's geometric integrity.

With those objectives in mind, let's take another look at the rear orthographic view of the current model:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_001.jpg

This is the most important view of this model because it's possible to project the basic cross-sectional shapes of almost every major part.

Now take a look at this spline diagram:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_002.jpg

There are several things to notice here. First, the red lines show the rough outlines of the current model. Second, the light blue lines show the outlines of the new version of the model I intend to build. Third, the darker blue lines show where the decks will be in the new version.

As you can see, I've widened the diameter of the primary hull by a few meters and given it a slightly sharper edge. Correspondingly, the nacelles have moved outward by about the same amount and their diameter has been slightly reduced. This should serve to spread out the major hull pieces a little and make the ship seem less compact. I also lowered the deflector pod and enlarged it a little bit, and changed the size and location of the shuttle bay doors, as well as a few other tiny adjustments here and there, mostly to better align the ship's exterior with its internal deck layout.

I should also note that the photorp launchers are not shown in this diagram. Frankly, I've always thought they were just a little bit extraneous and I am seriously debating whether or not to keep them in their present form. I've decided to leave them off the spline template until I decide what to do about them.

Also, for anybody who may be wondering, the decks are 3 meters high with 1 meter of space in between.

Thoughts? Opinions?

[BorgMan]

OMFG...

Well... Seeing as now you have a better view of the decks it seems reasonable. Has it got anything to do with trying to get it into thenext movie? Even a small cameo for it would be so cool, and, in the end, show that the producers are willing to listen to fans, especially after the dramatic things B&B did by NOT listening to the fanbase. You get my vote, Vek, I'd love to see it on the big screen.

... but I do think that you'll have to work faster if you want to leave some kind of impression on the producers. I know you're someone who takes time for a model (can't blame you, I'm such a person too). But I don't know when they will try to air the movie, and as such how much time you have until they are going to finish production on the CGI parts...

Anyway, maybe just a small idea: what if the photorp launchers swivel down from the primary hull? Atleast they're protected then when they do nothing...

The best of luck with it Vek, I'll be keeping a close eye on this baby, and you know it, give me a yell if you need a fast concept sketch of the interior. Means that you can continue modelling ;)

[traq]

I'm not one of those who was critical of her compactness, but I must say that the Vanguard is bigger than I thought from looking at the outside. the new proportions don't look bad at all.

I'm not sure that I like the reduced nacelle diameter. I suppose I'd have to see the new model.

about the torp launchers, I like them as is, but a swing-down version like BorgMan suggests might look cool. The swivel laser cannons turned out nice, so why not? and a retractable design would go well with the OS Constitution-class ethic of having everything hidden from view.

looks awesome as always...

[Vektor]

Well, I made some kick-ass progress today. Actually, I would have done better, but I was pausing along the way to take lots of screenshots and document each major step of the process. I'll post all of that stuff soon, but in the meantime here's where the new model stands after about four hours worth of work:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_030.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_031.jpg

Everything is new except the engines. Speaking of which, I tried shrinking them to a diameter of 14m but they started to look anemic so I pumped them back up to the original 15.8m. I also lengthened them by about 4m overall so they don't seem quite as stubby as before.

Obviously the neck and deflector pod are yet to be added. I'm planning to make quite a few changes in those areas and I want to work out some more details before I show what I've got.

Oh, and in case you're wondering why I bothered with all this for a couple of meters here and there, the biggest improvement is in the mesh itself. It will now hold up to much closer renderings without segmentation or other flaws, and I managed to keep the geometry much cleaner and more precise than before. There's also a lot of stuff like panel lines that have already been cut into the mesh but haven't been extruded yet so they don't show up in these renderings.

[Vektor]

Well... Seeing as now you have a better view of the decks it seems reasonable. Has it got anything to do with trying to get it into thenext movie?

Some of the proportional changes were suggested to me by a couple of different people who are professionals in the industry. Nothing more than that at this point.


... but I do think that you'll have to work faster if you want to leave some kind of impression on the producers. I know you're someone who takes time for a model (can't blame you, I'm such a person too). But I don't know when they will try to air the movie, and as such how much time you have until they are going to finish production on the CGI parts...

The movie isn't scheduled for release until 2008 and probably won't even begin production until the middle of next year. But you're right, I need to work faster and I'm endeavouring to do so.


Anyway, maybe just a small idea: what if the photorp launchers swivel down from the primary hull? Atleast they're protected then when they do nothing...

Interesting idea but I don't think so. I may try to integrate them more with the deflector pod or move them to an entirely different part of the ship.


...give me a yell if you need a fast concept sketch of the interior. Means that you can continue modelling ;)

Well, I've got quite a few ideas about particular interior spaces like the bridge and the shuttle bays but I'm always open to suggestions, so feel free to contribute whatever you like.

[Gilmour]

:o Well I'm a bit suprised, I always liked the character of your ship there, Vektor. But I can probably see why. I'll say this for your new one it looks certainly in the style you've created somewhat. I really like your models here, hope the new one gets passed those criticisms. :(

Still, lookin' good:thumb: :D

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Everything is new except the engines. Speaking of which, I tried shrinking them to a diameter of 14m but they started to look anemic so I pumped them back up to the original 15.8m. I also lengthened them by about 4m overall so they don't seem quite as stubby as before.The mesh itself is beautiful, but indeed the stubbyness bothered me as well. However, there's not much difference to my admittedly untrained eye.

I think it's because it's not the overall length of the nacelles that create the 'stubby' feel, but the length of the front portion alone that does it. The back of the nacelle could be as long as a starbase, yet it wouldn't affect the overall feel much, I think, due to the 'open' design of it. It's the front portions that get noticed, and somewhat form the profile. You could try moving the part that marks the 'crossover', for lack of a better word, back somewhat, and see how that works out. That way the front part is lengthed and the back one shortened. It might even be possible to keep exactly the original overall length you had.

I've upped the contrast on one of your wip images to show what I mean; the front portion of the nacelles form a 'boundary', and the back portions look like 'bolt ons' in the general profile.

Maybe this idea helps?

[USS Mariner]

I think it looks fine now. And thanks for the spline outline. I can try my own personal crack at this legend.

[Aethernaut]

She's a tight little ship. Digging the redo so far.

[Helot]

Well, I guess I was in a minority that thought it rocked as is. The 'new' version seems, when seen as is, not all that different from the original. Maybe when you get further along and do a side-by-side the differences will be more pronounced. The engines look great.

[Freak]

Love this ship. I hope it makes it into the new Moive if they do go with a pequel. Even if they don't they could always show it in a Starfleet museum. The new version is coming alone nicly.

[[Irishman]]

My jaw has officially hit the floor. You're remodeling her? Man, you've GOT to be having dreams about this thing, you see it so much. :)

[NeoHunter]

That absolutely rocks!

[Vektor]

I was concerned about the face count for the new saucer section, which was pushing 150,000 all by itself, so I went back and remodeled it one hull plate at a time. Here's the result:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_003.jpg

The total face count for the entire model shown here is now down to 71,787. That's triangles, not polygons. Here's a closer shot:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_004.jpg

I haven't started on the panel lines for the aft hull yet and that object between the two outriggers is just something I was experimenting with so don't pay too much attention to it. For those of you who are still uncertain about the Vanguard's size, I threw in my standard 6' human figure as a scale reference.

Here's what the wireframe looks like:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_005.jpg

There are a few things to note about this... First, I used my standard technique of reducing the lathe segments toward the center of the saucer, which saved a couple tens of thousands of faces all by itself. Second, I cut the radial panel lines through the middle of the polygons rather than their edges. Why? Because smooth shading doesn't work across panel lines and the angle difference between polygons on either side of a panel line tends to make the panels look "puckered" around the edges, like the way pieces of mud curl up at the edges on a dry lake bed. By making such adjacent polygons co-planar or nearly co-planar, the pucker effect is dramatically reduced.

One more close-up shot to show how close you can get before segmentation starts to show:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_006.jpg

If you look close, you can see a little segmentation starting to creep in at this distance but it would probably be impossible to notice when animated.

Gotta go get some more paying work done, then more progress on the Grandeur, so I probably won't get back to this for a few days.

[Tallguy]

Nice as always. How do you attach the saucer segments with the different levels of detail? Is that a Max thing or do you do that by hand?

[Helot]

:eek: Freak'n amazing.

I don't really follow the whole panel line cut explaination - have to try it out and see if I can replicate your explanation (noviceness showing).

[Vektor]

Nice as always. How do you attach the saucer segments with the different levels of detail? Is that a Max thing or do you do that by hand?

I do it by hand. You have to understand, though, that I only did one of each type of hull plate in a 15 degree segment and then instance arrayed them all the way around. I had to go back and make specialized modifications to some of them, like the ones in front of the bridge module, but left as many of them as instances as possible. That way, I can go back at any time and alter details like the extrusion height of the panels on a single plate and it automatically changes every plate in that concentric ring. I'll have to make more and more of them unique as I continue to add details like windows, but by then the more fundamental stuff should be pinned down anyway and global changes should not be necessary.

[Tallguy]

Ah. So, some work, but not nearly as scary as I was considering. Very cool.

[Shinohara]

Do a search on Amazon for any book by a guy named Ted Boardman. Of all the books I've read on using 3ds Max effectively, his nail it in the clearest, most concise and most insightful manner. He's a professional trainer and lecturer and he knows how to get information across in a way you can understand it and really use it. He also maintains a regular column on a site named www.cgarchitect.com, which is chock-full of little tricks, tips and techniques for doing all sorts of stuff, much of it related to architecture but useful in other ways, too.

In fact, I give Ted Boardman a lot of the credit for helping me figure out how to do projects like the one I'm working on right now that I'm actually getting paid for. It's a new building on the WSU campus here in Spokane that they haven't even broke ground on yet:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/ICN_15a.jpg

This is actually a revamped version of some daytime renderings I posted in a "What I've been working on" thread back before SFM went up in smoke the last time. A little over a week ago I was asked to update the model to the latest design plans, fill in a truckload of extra details and convert it to a nighttime environment with interior and exterior lighting. The rendering above was done last night and it's about 90% finished. Just need to add more lights to that front section on the left and some interior details in the larger rooms. This is why you haven't seen any progress from me this week on either the Vanguard or the Grandeur.

By the way, there are over 150 lights in that scene and it's broken into three separate files: one for the interior, one for the building exterior, and one for grounds surrounding it. All three are XREF'd into a single scene with the GI lighting rig for rendering. The entire scene consists of about 115,000 faces and is radiosity rendered. The image above took an hour and forty minutes to render on my current system.

Totally off-topic but not completely irrelevant. ;)

Very impressive, and nice to see there's actually other people from my area on here (I live in Coeur d'Alene). How do you go about finding freelance work like this? I've been looking at trying to find some freelance work doing architectural visualization since I've got a background in drafting and architecure and have been looking for a way to kill some free time that would bring in some money as well. I'm guessing the Boardman books would be the best starting point?

[gpdesigner]

I am so sorry I missed this thread, that's a hellova ship you got there Vektor,
is this a redesign and upgrade? I started reading the thread in the begining but I cheated to the last page . . . .
Very nice work man, the lines on this thing are very smooth.
gp

[Vektor]

How do you go about finding freelance work like this? I've been looking at trying to find some freelance work doing architectural visualization since I've got a background in drafting and architecure and have been looking for a way to kill some free time that would bring in some money as well.

Technically, the WSU/EWU project wasn't freelance. I have mentioned my "former employer" a couple of times but I am actually still on the payroll, albeit on a very part-time basis.

Freelance work of this type is difficult if not impossible to find in this part of the country. Most of the architects and other firms that have a need for it have people in-house to do it for them. Believe me, if I could do this type of work on my own, I would.

[Vektor]

Okey, here's one more set for tonight. I was looking back through some of the earliest pencil sketches I made of the Vanguard and there was one version with some radiator fins attached to the nacelles almost like wings. Those long ago evolved into the "tail fins" that I've been using on the nacelles for years now, but there was a certain quality to that old sketch that I rather liked and I decided to try adding something similar to the current model. This was the result:

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_007.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_008.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_009.jpg

I don't know, I can't decide if I really like 'em or not. They do help ballance the highly placed mass of the nacelles somewhat. Another thing I like about them is that they fit well into the '30s and '40s aircraft inspired theme I've been subtly applying to the design. I figure since TOS was made during the '60s, one way to suggest this design predates the Constitution class by 20 or 30 years is to make it look like something that might have been designed during the '30s or '40s.

Anyway, I thought I'd throw it out there to see what you all think about it.

[Gothic_Goatboy]

personally I'd say they add just the right amount of detail. looking good to me.

[Deagle]

I like them. It does balance with the low slung deflector/ pod section.
And I like the idea of giving the ship a 30s/ 40s look to redate the conny.

[Masterjedi]

Very nice work. Can we see a wireframe of the current mesh? I'd love to see the underlying poly work.

-MJ

[traq]

<- also likes the fins. likes a lot

[Freak]

she coming alone very nicely!

[Helot]

The 'fins' and an elegant retro feel to the overall look. Nice add - I'd try an keep 'em.

[gpdesigner]

The fins are indeed a nice addition . . question . . is this an underwater vessel? UES sounds familiar . . .
Seaquest or somethin' like that
gp

[seanr]

The new fins look great, but I'd recommend turning them (and the tail fins) forty-five degrees so the fins angle out a bit. I think that'd look a little more sleek.

[PhilArt]

I like the fins too, but I concur with seanr.

[Melak]

Yep, A *bit* like the intrepid type ship on ENT. So far, very nice work, as usual =D

[Fabio]

very nice - i like...

[Gilmour]

I like the fins...but there's something about them which make em look nice and yet odd..but in a slightly good way and only something I'd define as odd..really..I cna't put my finger on it..so to speak.:confused: :D
Anyway It's looking cool and the fins, well they look retro in a star trek sense:lol: :thumb:

[Vektor]

Can we see a wireframe of the current mesh? I'd love to see the underlying poly work.

I'll try to post some more wireframes in the near future.

[Berticus]

So fifties, I'm liking the fins a lot. A nice departure from 'classic' design formats.

Now, I couldn't tell you what "'classic' deisgn format" is, but still.

Great work.
-albert

[Vektor]

question . . is this an underwater vessel? UES sounds familiar . . .
Seaquest or somethin' like that
gp

In my version of Trek history, which predates and was partially contradicted by Star Trek: Enterprise, the original authority for human space exploration prior to the founding of the Federation was the United Earth Space Probe Agency. This was inspired by a reference Kirk made to UESPA in one of the very first TOS episodes. U.E.S. therefore stands for United Earth Ship. Later, after the Federation came into being, I assume that U.E.S. was replaced by the less Earth-centric designation of U.S.S. for United Space Ship or United Star Ship.

Having said all that, the U.E.S. designation is actually not appropriate for this ship any longer. At one time I had intended for it to be an ENT-era starship, but it was originally conceived to be only 20 or 30 years older than the Constitution class, well beyond the point where the Federation was founded, and that is the concept I have returned to.

In other words, when I get around to restoring the various hull markings, the name will be U.S.S. Vanguard.

[Vektor]

Okay, I was actually thinking of trying this before seanr suggested it, but I'll give him the credit for prompting me to actually do it. ;)

I've re-oriented the radiator fins on the nacelles in four different configurations. Here they are, starting with the option seanr suggested.

Option A - Tailfins diagonal, dissipator wing angled outward 45 degrees:
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_010.jpg

I have to admit I'm not fond of this one because I MUCH prefer the tail fins in a "+" arrangement rather than an "X". I also feel that the dissipator wing sticks out a little too much.

Option B - Tailfins orthagonal, dissipator wing bent outward 45 degrees:
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_011.jpg

This one I like quite a lot. It's sort of the best of both worlds with the tailfins in a "+" arrangement and the dissipator wing angled outward but no protruding quite so far. I also like the fact that it reminds of the Pacific Theater WWII fighters called Corsairs.

Option C - Tailfins changed from 4 to 3 with vertical top fin, dissipator wing angled outward 60 degrees:
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_012.jpg

Three tailfins instead of four works pretty well, especially with one of them straight up, which I think it what I missed the most in the "X" arrangement. What I don't like is the dissipator wing sticking so far out to the side; it seems to lose most of its original intent and starts to look a little too... atmospheric.

Option D - Tailfins changed from 3 to 4 with horizontal inside fin, dissipator wing angled outward at 30 degrees:
http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_013.jpg

I like this one quite a bit, too. The tailfins throw off the overall symmetry of the warp engine a little bit but the angle of the dissipator wing is not bad.

I find myself leaning toward Option B with Option D a close second. Option C is not out of the question but not really preferred, and Option A would be my least favorite.

Opinions?

[Berticus]

Corsair.. Most definitely... Or, howabout three with the corsair bend to set it off 'just right.'

-albert

[Masterjedi]

Hmm... I think I like C the best. Nice variations.

[Comco]

I actually preffer option C out of all those but Option B looks damned nice too... :)

What are your plans for the center-rear of the ship? (Between the impulse engines...)

[EDIT]

Corsair.. Most definitely... Or, howabout three with the corsair bend to set it off 'just right.'

Now THERE'S an idea...That would look really cool IMHO... :)

[gthompsn]

I like 'D' the best

[blakbyrd]

Option C.

[admiral horton]

i vote Option C

[Aethernaut]

I'm with everybody else in saying #3. It's a cleaner, sleeker line that just looks like it fits.

[Vektor]

Corsair.. Most definitely... Or, howabout three with the corsair bend to set it off 'just right.'

You mean like this?

http://home.comcast.net/~jasoncbl/images/Vanguard/new/wip_014.jpg

It's kinda neat, I'll admit, but I think it's taking the inspiration a little too far into obvious territory. What I don't want is for the dissipator to look like an actual wing. The closer it gets to horizontal, the more it looks like something that should be taking off from a runway, not a spacedock.

Option B is really calling to me. 45 degrees is about as high an angle as I want to go with, but coming off the bottom of the nacelle with the outward bend helps to neutralize the wing metaphore. In fact, I've been looking for a class name for this ship and all of a sudden Corsair class is not sounding too awful bad. :thumb:

[dru]

B is the one I prefer.

C starts to remind me of an airship / blimp.

D, the nacelles begin to look like ray guns with the dissipator wings as hand grips.

A, with the X arrangement, the dissipator wings make the top pair of fins look very fragile.

[Gilmour]

Nice variations I gotta say. But I'm slightly liking A, just from my stand point (not meaning to throw you off, lol) but you know I'd go with B, got what I like of A with a dash of some nice design...pretty weird when all that's applied is that it's a bent bit, but it pulls it off pretty well, regardless.:D

Then that bent off right one looks nice in an unusual way too.

[gpdesigner]

I'm particial to option D,
The 30 degree angle of the fins are not as exposed as option C. It gives it a more powerful more stable look because the fins are somewhat protected.

Don't like the Corsair Flare at all, it's a design addition that servers no practical purpose. Your taking an already exposed fin, and then exposing it more. . . . .

Just my op . . . . :D
gp

[al3d]

looking cool....starting to have a crossover feel about it..lots of Star Wars style design stuff in there..:)

[PhilArt]

What about leaving the fins in the + arrangement and having the radiator fin a seperate element that is out at an angle?

I think I like B best so far, three fins seems too sparse.

[traq]

option b looks best overall.

I actually like the fin itself best in option a, but the nacelles do need the + orientation and not the x. definately.

[CrimsonLine]

My fave is C, followed by B.

Looks amazing, Vek!

[seanr]

A, then D. ;)

[Melak]

I actually think C is the best looking variant, adds kinda sleekness to the ship!

[Freak]

I like option A the best followed C

[Helot]

C looks cool at first but have to agree it gives that atmospheric feel - too much of an ariplane look. B is the best.

[Tallguy]

Late vote - B.

[Vektor]

What are your plans for the center-rear of the ship? (Between the impulse engines...)

Funny you should ask. The warp core assembly and engineering section is the one area of this ship that was never really finished. I suppose you could add the deflector pod and supporting structure to that unfinished list as well. I'm still not sure exactly what form it will take but I'm working on a few different possibilities.

[Vektor]

looking cool....starting to have a crossover feel about it..lots of Star Wars style design stuff in there..:)

I suppose, but the Star Wars similarities were unintentional. The warp nacelles have long been compared to the engines on the Y-wing, but it wasn't always so. Originally the tail fins were solid, but I thought they looked rather blank and featureless that way so I changed them a few years ago not long after the Vanguard made its public debut. It never occurred to me how much they looked like the Y-wing until somebody else pointed it out to me.

What I am now calling the "dissipator wings" were taken from a very early sketch of the Vanguard with nacelles that looked much more like the classic versions from the TOS Enterprise. I was looking for ways to make them look different and perhaps less advanced, since this ship was supposed to be an even older design. The wing later evolved into the four tail fins. The dissipator wings shown in my latest renderings are much more refined than they ever were before and I won't deny that Star Wars may have had some influence on them.

[Vektor]

What about leaving the fins in the + arrangement and having the radiator fin a seperate element that is out at an angle?

I'm afraid having the tail fins and the dissipator wing as totally different elements and jutting out at different angles would start to look like the nacelles were bristling with too many extrusions. If the wings are to be kept at all, I think they need to be integrated with the fins.

[Roliba]

I vote B.

[warp5project]

Option A.

[seanr]

How about putting some exposed field coils around the tub inside of the fins? That space begs for something.

[Cincinnatus]

I'd go with D, but the fins look a little anemic pointing that far down. I like Berticus' idea. What would D look like with a Corsair bend?

[Nightwing]

I like C. Love your work!

[largo]

option b

[Doble]

I wanted to say that I LOVE the detail on the impulse engines on page one :D

[Eoraptor]

know I'm pretty late to the party here... but I also prefer option B

[theppell]

Where did the activity go?
This thread was oh so very active and now we are down to doing bumps.

Did I miss something?

[Starship]

"B" version, or the "E" version. :D

[Road Warrior]

Vektor... your work is phenominal...as always. To make a long story short.... I have always admired the Vanguard and I sincerily hope to one day see her grace the Silver Screen. Keep up the outstanding work and take care.

[VALKYRIE013]

a bit late to the party, just wondering if you have made any more progress on the vanguard, I know your busy with paying work, and can't get to all the stuff you like. Love the design, and option B, with the corsair wings look great, if your still deciding.

[Praetor]

A bit late in the game myself too... I vote for choice 'C'.

[spockboy]

FANTASTIC!
I love the detail and how the nacelle caps are more deeply embedded in the front.
beautiful job!

[DamienNZ]

A..

[Guerrilla]

09-19-2007 02:17 AM

Check the dates before you post. It's not that hard.

[DamienNZ]

My apologies i dont usually necro post.

guerilla - you dont need to be rude tho - really

[Starscream]

Considering what I was tempted to say, I think you got off fairly light. ;)